Curse

generaldave · Sep 15, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I wasn't exactly sure where to put this, but I don't think that I'm too far off, being that it has to do with builds.

I've been away from Guild Wars for almost a year and decided to read up on some Warrior builds before I just jumped back into the game. It seems as tho tanking is very frowned upon now and I don't understand why. For one, there is nothing wrong with being self sufficient as this will take a portion of the load off of the monks. I understand that if you have good monks, you shouldn't have to worry about yourself. I also know that you can't always rely on the monks to be good(That goes for all classes). My second argument is that there are hundreds of skills for a reason. Not everyone should be required to use the same 20 or so.

As a side argument: This is a game. It should be fun. It shouldn't be about having to do the same thing everyone else does. On that note, why will people only accept you if you show them your build? Some people might make up their own build and don't want to share it.

Back on track, I used to run with this build back in the day when skills were a bit more limited:
[skill=text]Bonetti's Defense[/skill][skill=text]Sever Artery[/skill][skill=text]Gash[/skill][skill=text]Final Thrust[/skill][skill=text]Healing Breeze[/skill][skill=text]Healing Hands[/skill][skill=text]Live Vicariously[/skill][skill=text]Mending[/skill]

In an area where enchant removal was an issue, I used:
[skill=text]Cleave[/skill][skill=text]Dismember[/skill][skill=text]Penetrating Blow[/skill][skill=text]"Watch Yourself"[/skill][skill=text]Physical Resistance[/skill][skill=text]Elemental Resistance[/skill][skill=text]Dolyak Signet[/skill][skill=text]Healing Signet[/skill]

I'm not saying that these are perfect builds, but I don't see why they wouldn't be accepted. They are pretty self sufficient and both have damaging skills also. I've found myself to be the last man standing quite often with both. These two builds got me all missions and bonus's in prophecies without a problem.

Anyways, my main point is that I don't see what's wrong with tanking and with having your own build as opposed to what everyone else does.

ALF71BE · Sep 15, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

I lol'd.

Anyways, as an starting argument, this isn't a solo game when referring to a party. The party works as one through the areas of the game. Each party has the guys that deal damage, others that support it, and others that keep the team alive. It's not about each running their own self-sufficient build.

Improvavel · Sep 15, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

You are in for a world of pain.

[Protective Spirit]+[Shield of Absorption] cast on a warrior by a monk already means great "tanking" or "body block" capability.

So if monks already bring this cause they are great and can be used on everyone of your team when for some reason your foes stop attacking the warrior, and trust me they will, why should you gimp your damage output and disrutption for self defense?

None of those builds will allow you to survive without a backline healing you. So you focus on damage dealing, with some knock or disruption, monks will focus on mitigating damage and healing damage that isn't mitigated.

Azza · Sep 15, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Acctually tanking can be done easy, u dont need wammo builds, theres a full set of warrior skills/runes/insignias that can help u tank

a good bar for a tank, W/Rt, Enraging Charge/Barborous Slice/Gash/Vengful Was Kahnei(or how ever it's spelt)/I Am unstoppable/lions comfort/weapon of warding and a rez(FomF or Rez Sig or SS rebirth sig or DP sig)

and the idea of tanking, is to be able to grab and Hold aggro, body block them against a wall or something(sometimes there no wall wich requires a litt more skill) and let ur party come in deal damge/degen/heal or W/E party set up u have why u hold aggro, sometimes kicking the rit proffession and taking on Half ele, with earth skills, such as Magnetic Aura and Grasping earth to block damage/and reduce enemies coming in at ur party and whipping the crap outta ur monk, many tank builds in game, just pugs dont understand let a tank TANK, instead of following up his ass like ur attached to it, wich i why wars get a bad name for Rushing, WERE NOT RUSHING, WERE TRYING TO STAY AHEAD OF THE GROUP AND GRAB/HOLD AGRO WHILE THE REST OF U ARIVE AND WHIPE OUT THE ENEMY.

And dont take a tank build into PvP there just gonna ignore u, theres plenty of war skills to deal high amounts of damge

Shayne Hawke · Sep 15, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Old builds are old. Even if they still work, there are often better builds in existence than from years ago.

Also, it seems the attitude these days gears more towards whether a build works in HM or not with farming builds being the exception. I don't think tanking is a very effective concept in HM.

Tyla · Sep 15, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Those builds are bad.

Let's take a look at the W/Mo. Sure, it was used back then but there were simply better choices for skills even for back then, taking this bar as an example:

[sever artery][gash][final thrust][frenzy][rush][bull's strike][no skill][resurrection signet]

It gives you all you need on a Warrior bar, and you don't need self sufficiency to be effective. In addition to this, Mending is a terrible skill with incredibly high energy needs for such a small effect. Healing Breeze is also weak, because in a non-split situation regen generally isn't effecitve at all. Healing Hands could be used on something better, heck even Hundred Blades would yield better results. Live Vicariously? Vigorous Spirit is far stronger and even then I wouldn't touch that skill. Bonetti's Defense also takes away the ability to use skills, and disallows you an IAS. Energy management? Pfft. You wouldn't have to waste 5 skill slots for self defense. Heal Sig would be enough.

Moving onto the second bar...

Dolyak Signet is a terrible skill. It snares you immensely when X Resistance is far, far better and even then the Resistance skills take up an IAS. Armour doesn't stack that much anymore, and a Warrior bar without an IAS is weak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Generaldave

Anyways, my main point is that I don't see what's wrong with tanking and with having your own build as opposed to what everyone else does.

Tanking is a slow and incredibly horrible tactic. Holding aggro is a completely different concept as holding aggro is... just holding aggro, and tanking means you're devoting skill slots to it, and at the same time crippling your DPS. Warriors were made for damage.

Quote:

As a side argument: This is a game. It should be fun. It shouldn't be about having to do the same thing everyone else does. On that note, why will people only accept you if you show them your build? Some people might make up their own build and don't want to share it.

As for "your own build", you do understand that people like playing with this thing called "efficiency", right? Efficiency is fun for alot of people, including myself. Plus the fact I only accept people if they show their bar because I want to know what they're running. Just because people "made their own build" isn't the point. Be a team player or go play another game is what I'd say to them.

generaldave · Sep 15, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Most of you have flamed the builds posted. I clearly stated that these aren't the best, but they worked just fine in prophecies and they were only a means to show an example of other people having builds that work just fine. Just because I am not showing you my build doesn't mean that I am not a team player. I will still do my fair share in the group/team. It's funny that it was implied that I'm not being a team player, when I mentioned something about helping the cleric out. All of you also proved my point that it is a general requirement for everyone to be exactly the same. Someone may enjoy tanking, while you don't. It's their way of playing the game and having fun, yet you knock them and make fun of them. As for efficiency, both builds were perfectly efficient in their intended use. I also stated that they were used long ago, when skills were limited. Lets stop the flame fest and get back to the topic.

This thread was not designed to be specific to these two builds or to flame what I used a year ago. The purpose was to say that there is nothing wrong with someone wanting to tank as that's what they may enjoy doing. Your idea of fun is not the same as mine. I'd prefer people to be different and have their own play style rather than what they found on wiki, because it's the only thing that'll be accepted.

incender · Sep 15, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

tanking who need to tank when u got a skill called Save Yourselves! ? So all you need is a imbagon 1 or 2 dragon slash spammers. With this skill your sorted and in nm u dont need a tank because of minion master who will provide a meat wall. Tanking isnt needed these days expt in realy hard places like doa and even then they found ways around it also, you whanting to tank may force the whole team to change there builds to work with u grabing agro.

generaldave · Sep 15, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

incender, thank you for the valid argument without flaming. I can see how tanking is kind of outdated with that skill. I still don't understand what's wrong with being a little self sufficient. I'm not saying base your build on healing yourself. I'm saying adding some support doesn't hurt anyone. How about a skill like this [Reap Impurities] or [Victorious Sweep] ? They add some healing, but are still attack skills. Also, having a vampiric scythe, hitting three opponents every swing, in the perfect world. Obviously it's not always going ot happen. Along with that, [Whirlwind Attack] adds damage and self heal.

Picuso · Sep 15, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

You can be auto-sufficient without investing points in Healing Prayers (and you aren't Mo/X :S)

If you use those points in Strength or your Weapon Mastery, you will be killing a lot faster, and you will be able to use things like [Lion's Comfort], in case you need a Self-Heal.

The best way to help your monks (Clerics, as you call them) is killing fast, so they don't need to waste energy. And your job as Warrior is KILL.

Simple as That.

And, about the skills you mention, they are used to attack. The small healing is a "benefit". They aren't healing-only skills.

PS: LC card is outdated. Check wiki.

generaldave · Sep 15, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

My job as a warrior is to kill if I choose to kill. The description of a warrior specifically states tanking. The only reason why it is currently the job of the warrior to kill is because as I keep saying everyone has to be exactly the same or they are not accepted.

I agree with you that I don't necessarily need Healing Prayers. Those builds were just examples of what has worked for me and are out of the norm. I see your point of killing is healing. I've used that phrase plenty, however, both ways help the monk just fine.

As for the skills that have the small healing benefit, that's exactly what I said they were: They add some healing, but are still attack skills.

Keekles · Sep 15, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

I personally don't take someone who devotes half their bar to make them take less damage. I'd much rather take a squishy a/w with SY! or even a warrior that only has frenzy, rush, and res sig.

If I have a warrior in my party, I want them to bring damage, I have prots to put on them so they don't explode, that's my job as a monk. A warrior makes things die so I don't deplete my energy pool. Your damage output is dismal, yes, you won't die, but if aggro breaks off of you, you won't be able to kill them very quickly. Dolyak signet makes you snare yourself to a stupid level, if you lose aggro, you end up walking slowly in a corner and not doing damage or killing stuff.

subarucar · Sep 15, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Tanking is only realy needed in elite areas - UW, FoW etc. or if you are taking far less than the party maximum in your team. Sure having some healing is nice so you can take a bit of pressure of your monk(s) if the party is taking alot of damage, but devoting more than 1 skill to it is a waste.

ALF71BE · Sep 15, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

^ No it's not. Tanking isn't needed at all in this game. PS + Spirit Bond and you won't need anything else for, say, pulling.

Now let's say tanking was good for a second. That bar still sucks for tanking and you'll get all the armor ignoring hate which populates in the "hard" areas.

Rhamia Darigaz · Sep 15, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

clerics.

might not be a troll /sarcasm

oh alright, i'll play along

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

why will people only accept you if you show them your build? Some people might make up their own build and don't want to share it.

if you want to play by your own terms make your own party or h/h.
if you want to keep a build secret cause you think it's uber pwnzor and nobody has ever thought of it before (you're wrong) don't play with people. even if you don't ping your build they can see you using skills as you play. duh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

a squishy a/w with SY!

[critical agility] means sins in pve aren't squishy

generaldave · Sep 15, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I should never have posted the builds as this entire thread has become to be about them and how much they suck. I am well aware of the fact that these are not the best builds. I clearly stated that in the first post. I also clearly stated that these specific builds are not what this post is about. They are just examples of things that work for others that is not accepted. Everyone is still proving my point that everyone has to be exactly the same in order to gain acceptance.

To further reiterate I know these are not the greatest builds. That is not the point of this thread.

Rhamia Darigaz · Sep 15, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

I should never have posted the builds as this entire thread has become to be about them and how much they suck. I am well aware of the fact that these are not the best builds. I clearly stated that in the first post. I also clearly stated that these specific builds are not what this post is about. They are just examples of things that work for others that is not accepted. Everyone is still proving my point that everyone has to be exactly the same in order to gain acceptance.

To further reiterate I know these are not the greatest builds. That is not the point of this thread.

if you post a build on guru it's going to get flamed becuase it's probably bad; this rule applies even if you think it's just a fun build that works. also, posting a wammo with [healing breeze][healing hands][live vicariously] and [mending] is a foolproof way to get yourself flamed.
i still say you're trolling

generaldave · Sep 15, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

might not be a troll /sarcasm

oh alright, i'll play along
if you want to play by your own terms make your own party or h/h.
if you want to keep a build secret cause you think it's uber pwnzor and nobody has ever thought of it before (you're wrong) don't play with people. even if you don't ping your build they can see you using skills as you play. duh

[critical agility] means sins in pve aren't squishy

Clerics came from a different game. I will correct that now.

I know about watching skills and stuff. It was just a hypothetical situation that I used as an example of a reason someone might not want to ping. It is possible that I or someone else is using a build that others have not and don't want to share it, tho. For as long as the game has been out, it's highly doubtful, but possible.

generaldave · Sep 15, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

What is trolling?

Tyla · Sep 15, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

Most of you have flamed the builds posted.

Let's get something straight here. Criticism isn't flaming, it's criticism. I merely pointed out why these builds were bad, and didn't flame them at all. Other members did the same.

Quote:

I clearly stated that these aren't the best, but they worked just fine in prophecies and they were only a means to show an example of other people having builds that work just fine.

Anything works in PvE, but some people want efficiency.

Quote:

Just because I am not showing you my build doesn't mean that I am not a team player. I will still do my fair share in the group/team. It's funny that it was implied that I'm not being a team player, when I mentioned something about helping the cleric out.

If you want to help the "Cleric" (Which is called a Monk in this game...), bring skills that can be used offensively and defensively, don't bring skills that can only be used defensively. Bull's Strike is an example of this, and so is "Save Yourselves!".

Quote:

All of you also proved my point that it is a general requirement for everyone to be exactly the same.

Sorry, but "exactly the same" is a bit over the top. You've obviously not seen the builds I run in Alliance Battles and PvE, yet they efficiently get the job done. Why is this? Because I maximise my efficiency and take some skills as foolabouts.

Quote:

Someone may enjoy tanking, while you don't. It's their way of playing the game and having fun, yet you knock them and make fun of them.

They can play an inferior build if they want, I'm not stopping them, but if this is my party where I want efficiency, I'd want the best I can get.

Quote:

As for efficiency, both builds were perfectly efficient in their intended use. I also stated that they were used long ago, when skills were limited.

And I provided a core Sword Warrior build. If you want Prophecies-only Warriors, all of these builds are incredibly viable:

[sever artery][gash][final thrust][frenzy][rush][no skill][no skill][no skill]

[eviscerate][executioner's strike][disrupting chop][frenzy][rush][no skill][no skill][no skill]

[earth shaker][crushing blow][crude swing][flurry][no skill][no skill][no skill][no skill]

Quote:

Lets stop the flame fest and get back to the topic.

Because disagreement is flaming, right?

Quote:

The purpose was to say that there is nothing wrong with someone wanting to tank as that's what they may enjoy doing.

And if my party isn't build for Tank 'N' Spank, why would you use a tank?

Quote:

Your idea of fun is not the same as mine.

Nail on the head. We play different things and like different things, so why play with someone who is entirely different when it comes to the subject of "fun"?

Quote:

I'd prefer people to be different and have their own play style rather than what they found on wiki, because it's the only thing that'll be accepted.

Oh, believe me, alot of people who just copypaste Wiki are bad because they don't incorperate player skill when it comes to the action. Using the same builds is because those builds are efficient at what they do and are extremely decent.

Just copying a build off Wiki and thinking you're the shit with it isn't the way to play at all, because this game isn't entirely about builds, but player skill aswell.